Let's talk some politics here #3

[jashley]

Quickly in reference to the so-called "war" on Chritianity. We just want it kept separate of government as clearly intended by the constitution. The right's favorite target the ACLU has fought several cases in support of an INDIVIDUAL'S right to express their religious beliefs. Again the only way to protect an individual's right to express their beliefs freely is if no religion is promoted, favored, or endorsed by government. Again the constitution is intended to protect the minority. The seperation of church and state is designed to not only protect the government from religion but religion from government. You mentioned the Church of England, read the history and you will see how a church's moral authority can be corrupted by being influenced by close ties to government.

Peace
j

[featphoto]

billl said:

However, if you click (and read) the link I posted above you may be surprised just how flexible the Orthodox Church is (as compared to other Sects).

wow, that's quite an extensive bit of writing. I'd recommend it to anyone who's a fan of learning about other groups of people (and their faith)

I've always been fascinated by the subject of faith & religion ... as a student of anthropology (my degree) and also apparently a secular humanist (according to Jerry Falwell, who I watch occasionally under the theory of knowing your enemy) I take a decidedly secular, analytical view of the reasons for religion and the need for a god (or gods) in mankind's world view. however, at times some of the best things come out of faith and the tenents professed by religions, and at other times some of the foulest and most destructive things.

I do believe that mankind has to have something to keep it humble and outwardly focused, something to supress the (apparently) natural tendency towards selfishness, violence and greed (part of our primate survival instinct, I suspect). To the degree that religion supplies that necessary kick in the ass to think about things bigger and more important than ourselves I applaud it, but don't embrace it personally.

My personal view is pretty simple (tho' it would drive Falwell & his ilk nuts): anyone who looks at the universe and its wonders and thinks we're the best thing in it is out of his ever lovin' mind. anyone who thinks they've got an inside connection to the nature of the universe, it's creator and her thoughts is an egotistical fool. I like Robin William's bit best ... "I understand you've met God? Yes, I have. Well, what can you tell us? Well, first of all she's black .... second of all, she wants to have a word with Falwell."

gee, ya think I've got a problem with Jerry Falwell?

[BillL]

J,
fantastic response. But why would you think that I'd hate it that you're going to a Democratic meeting. That's Democracy in action, baby. I'm all for it. Just because we disagree doesn't mean I don't respect you for your beliefs.

For those of you keeping score at home, we have 1 minor issue with the PA and 1 major issue with the PA (which has since been correctly rectified). With all the laws out there and the abuse that comes with said laws, that's not too bad.

As far as voting without reading, Patrick Kennedy and Lincoln Chaffee are perfect examples of how people can vote and have no idea what they are voting for. Not only is your point well taken, but it couldn't be more true (sadly). Have fun and don't let Teddy Kennedy drive you anywhere

Just kidding.

Bill L

[BillL]

Wow, it's like a chat room in here

[Mike]

featphoto said:

I do believe that mankind has to have something to keep it humble and outwardly focused, something to supress the (apparently) natural tendency towards selfishness, violence and greed (part of our primate survival instinct, I suspect). To the degree that religion supplies that necessary kick in the ass to think about things bigger and more important than ourselves I applaud it, but don't embrace it personally.

In the town I grew up in there was a guy named Clark Risner. Bad dude!!! He and his bunch would rob you, cut you, shoot you, and the women weren't safe...get the picture? Well of course he ended up in prison for 7 years or so. While there he discovered religion...big time.
When he got out his name was Clark Christ and he carried his Bible every where he went. He was hitchhiking back from El Paso once and caught a ride with Jesus Christ himself, a 17 yr old kid from Jaurez...get the picture now? I think they found a peyote field out in that desert.

Well, now all of the people that once feared Clark now laughed and ridiculed him. When they asked why I wasn't laughing my only response was "perhaps you would rather go back to the old Clark?"

[Mike]

billl said:

And I also think the earth itself will overcome (with time) anything we throw at it (again excepting nuclear holocaust, alien invasion or interstellar garbage collection).
Bill L

---> And thanks for keeping it clean! You can pile on if'n someone starts.

"There's tigers in the temple. Sleeping on the throne.."

"shake off all these fleas and sing a brand new tune.."

from The Clock = Stephen Bruton

[jashley]

BillL

I see you brought up the alternative energy sub-thread again. Does anyone remember that Jimmy Carter started and funded an alternative energy program when he was president. Unfortunately the great conservative god Ronald Reagan defunded and demolished this program as soon as he took office. If people would have listened to Pres. Carter we would probably have no dependence on fossil fuels by now or at least be well on the way to solving the problem. I do think the bio-diesel solution to this problem has great promise. The hardware changes for a diesel engine are minimal. As a matter of fact your diesel Mercedes will run on corn oil stock, but a few small modifications are recommended. Not only could this quickly lesson our need for foreign oil but it would give a boost to our farmers and industry. But you would be stepping on big oil's toes, so let's see what happens.

I don't ever like to argue my point of view on religion because I would never wish to lessen anyone's personnel belief in whatever they choose to believe in. But always remember that the hardest thing for a human or the human race to admit to himself is "I don't know". It is terrifying to us if we don't have an answer to an important question. The only comfortable way for us to deal with not knowing is to use God as an explanation. I feel that the bible is the accumulated knowledge gathered at that point in history about how to have a good life and a livable society. And the only way to explain the why of the bible to the less sophisticated people of that day was to say that God said so. I still feel that if a person lived his life in the way laid out in the bible he would have a good life. I am not able (sadly) to have a personal belief in a God, life would be much easier if I could.

One of the things that has been bothering me lately is the lack of and disdain for scientific knowledge in this country. One of the ways the news confuses people is that they use the term "Theory" in the popular way and not the scientific way.The popular reading of the term is that a theory is not proven. But a scientist uses the term to denote accepted scientific fact. Thesis would be the term scientifically for the popular theory. A thesis is tested against an antithesis (the opposite)and a hypothesis is formed which is then tested and a theory is developed. Theory is the accepted truth in the scientific community unless compelling evidence should appear that contradicts it. The Theory of Relativity is the accepted fact, the Theory of Evolution is the accepted fact. The Theory of Global Warming is the accepted fact among scientists. Sorry Bill but no reputable scientists is going to agree with you. They not only have temp. records for a hundred years they have core samples that tell them temp ranges going back tens of thousands of years. The reason Jr won't believe in Global warming is that it goes against the interest of his oil buddies and for no other reason. Don't buy this bs. You speak of common sense. It took millions of years to make the oil reserves on earth and by some estimates we have burned half of those reserves in one hundred years. Do you really think that you can do something like that and you're not going to have to pay some kind of ecological price? One more thought on oil. It is too valuable a resource to burn to get from one point to another. When we have no oil where do we get all of the other things we make from petroleum.

Does anyone else find it irritating that Jr can't tell the difference between the answer and the question. He starts damn near every speech now with "Since we all had the same intelligence before the war...." That's not the answer idiot, that's the question. Who had what intelligence before the war? The CIA, the NSA, and the FBI all work for the executive branch of government. So who do you think is getting the unfiltered intelligence? I am not excusing anyone who voted for the war on the White House say so, but who's zooming who here. I think the people are finally catching on to the lie long enough and it becomes the truth trick, something like 60% of Americans don't believe what the president tells them. It's better than Cheney though, 75% don't believe him. Restore honor and dignity to the White House huh'.

Featphoto,

Don't feel bad about hating Falwell every thinking human does (esp. the Christians, he is an embarrassment to them). Some think we don't have a Christian taliban in this country but I think Falwell, Robertson, et al look awful similar .

Peace
j

[Scott Hays]

With all due respect, jashley, a true "alternative energy" plan must look outside the box. Bio-diesel might make an acceptable (cleaner) form of energy generation, but it still involves an internal combustion engine which ... as we all know ... is so 20th century! I do not profess to have any answers (if I did, I wouldn't be typing on this silly keyboard), but I do know people are looking closely at many different energy sources ... various ways to generate electricity that do not rely on petrochemicals or combustion of any materials. Examples of such technologies exist today, of course, but all are limited in one way or another and thus not convenient or practical for personal or mobile use ... these would include moving parts around with water or wind (and if the water is in the form of steam, then a means to heat the water is still necessary), naturally occuring geothermal energy, and of course solar energy. The latter is finally approaching a phase in its development where the energy necessary to build the photovoltaic cells is less than the energy those cells can produce in a lifetime. This is where the technology has to go if it is to be truly "green"

I may be preaching to the choir here, but there are many things to consider in developing truly alternate energy sources and practices. Amongst them, of course, are cost of generation/production vs. the type and amount of energy the product (or tool, or engine) will deliver, the amount of energy needed to manufacture and/or prepare the energy source in the first place, and the waste materials produced by the energy transformations. Remember simple chemistry (and physics) here ... matter and energy are identical, and neither can be created or destroyed. There are always going to be byproducts when something (energy or matter) is changed. For a long time, we have focused on the material byproducts of energy transformations -- it has taken a long time and very serious battles to convince enough people that the crap coming out of combusted materials is poisonous enough that something has to be done to limit (if not eliminate) it. Of course, those whose profit is dependent upon cheaply cranking out energy find all sorts of wonderful weasel worded ways to convince everyone that they shouldn't be forced to find ways to control and/or eliminate those poisons (it costs too much, we will have to lay people off, we'll move our factories to other cities, states ... and now countries ... where they don't have such rules and laws and everyone here will be out of work, we'll declare bankruptcy change our names and start to operate as usual AND the U.S. government will bail us out with your money) and, because they have lots of money and influence, they have been largely successful in convincing most "elected" representatives to pass laws favoring their innate private property right to poison the world or, when that becomes too difficult a position for even the most hardened of prostitutes in elected official capacity to swallow, to at least soften the law so the requirements are not too onerous to meet (or the loopholes large enough to drive six humvees through). These monied private property "free market" forces (HAH!) are so powerful that they can bend the ear of any political party's leaders, and can give new meaning to such obviously intended phrases as "Clear Skies"!

But I digress (how easy is it to get me worked up over the greedy sob's who will leave a dead planet for my grandchildren just so they can have three vacation homes today? ... don't ask). It's taken a long time just to raise awareness of particle contamination and pollution that we can talk openly about "smog", and "methane", and "acid rain" and the like (and even suggest things that ought to be done about them) awithout fear of being shot in the back or having our legs broken in an "accident" by the corporate thugs and gangsters who run our nation.

And I digress yet again. Okay, back on track. We are only just beginning to understand the other side of the coin -- heat. Some reactions, of course, absorb heat from the outside. Most -- especially those designed to produce heat -- don't. The heat that is given off can be trapped and made to do efficient work ... and some technologies exist to do just that. But the majority of the heat given off in an energy exchange (or a chemical change) just flies out into the air around it. Hence the point about burning petrochemicals for 150 years and putting all the heat energy stored in them for 200 million years back into the atmosphere in such a short period of time. The outcome is potentially disasterous. Atom bomb, schmatom bomb. Life exists within a rather narrowly defined temperature range. Change the temperature too much ... poof! Ask our mighty ancestors, the dinosaurs about it (whose remaining descendents are proud and noble, to be sure, but not nearly as fearsome ... unless, like me, you find that a duck sits on your golf ball and you experience -- up close and personal -- just how fearsome a small bird can be)

So anyway ... thinking out side the box is necessary for the future ... not just some adaptation of current technology. We have heard about folks looking into hydrogen and generating energy by separating the two Hydrogen atoms that like to stick together in water; who knows, maybe the splitting of other plentiful atoms will produce sufficient energy to drive an electrical motor (O-two comes to mind, but oxygen is so damn explosive ... maybe it will be nitrogen or helium). All of these are much smaller atoms than uranium or plutonium, so (at least theoretically) the energy released in splitting them won't be quite so large as the energy produced in their more infamous examples. We have come a long way since building monstrously large linear accelerators to split the "large" atoms of heavier elements, but have a long way to go before attempting to split the gases with something small enough to fit inside a car (or even a house). Of course, the sun splits helium on its own ... and produces a rather significant (to us) amount of energy in doing so ... but it splits a LOT of helium atoms.

Magnetism is another truly alternate source of energy ... at least, energy for some purposes. Propulsion can be generated by putting the opposite poles of two magnets in close proximity ... and we now have magnetic stove tops. Looks like another avenue for exploration.

Of course, if in the 1970s we had seriously begun these investigations, we would be much closer to having them at our disposal. This is but one reason that the "great" Ronald Reagan needs to be taken down from his pillar and the conservative revolution be stuffed back into its box.

[Scott Hays]

Bill L ... here's another example of the Patriot Act:

Sami al-Arian, University of South Florida Professor of Computer Engineering, and publicly held up as the first landmark trial case for the Patriot Act by none other than John Ashcroft (unindicted conspirator) himself.

Now that a jury has found him not guilty on eight of the seventeen counts brought against him (including conspiracy to maim and murder), and deadlocked on the other nine (including ones that he aided the Palestinian Islamic Jihad), the Justice Department is backpedalling on just how important it thought this trial was, or how convincing the evidence it "legally" collected against him was. Interestingly enough, I noticed that some of the evidence admitted against him (under the Patriot Act) came from 1993 ... which suggests something many of us have known all along -- American government has been illegally spying on people and their actions for a long time. The Patriot Act merely allowed the government to claim that this illegally obtained evidence was "legal".

A prudent person likes to cover their rear end ... they like to have available to them resources that can be used as a last resort. Unfortunately, when we allow government ... and all the police powers and technologies and data storage/manipulation tools that they have at their command ... to put into writing these "last resorts" in the form of law, we can almost always count on the fact that someone is using them on a daily basis. It is in the nature of power and corruption that such things will pass.

This is the wisdom of those who actually crafted the Constitution. Even though they made for a very cumbersome system of government ... one that could only work slow and ponderously ... by creating this intricate system of checks and balances (and by this I do not refer only to the obvious C&Bs created by three equally powerful branches of government, but also the checks built into a bicamaral legislature, the terms of office in each branch and the like), it purposefully is designed to prevent anyone ... ranging from the biggest most loyal and people loving person all the way down to the most narrow of special interest pigs imaginable ... from acting hastily. And it doesn't matter if the haste arises from an "imminent threat", a "natural disaster", or a "geo-political-economic catastrophe"; any time we allow a supposed "liberator" or "hero" to assume unchecked power in any form, we surrender a little more of our liberty.

Of course, when you surrender it to a group that is openly and avowedly in the hands of the ruling class of this country, then the risk becomes more pressing.

[Scott Hays]

Hey, Mike ... you'll love this:

Telephone logs recorded by the National Security Agency and obtained by Congress as part of an ongoing investigation suggest that the vice president may have used the Oval Office intercom system to address President Bush at crucial moments, giving categorical directives in a voice the president believed to be that of God.

The complete article can be found at

www.theonion.com/content/

(I never claimed that all my sources were objective)

[Mike]

shays said:

With all due respect, jashley, a true "alternative energy" plan must look outside the box. Bio-diesel might make an acceptable (cleaner) form of energy generation, but it still involves an internal combustion engine which ... as we all know ... is so 20th century! I do not profess to have any answers (if I did, I wouldn't be typing on this silly keyboard), but I do know people are looking closely at many different energy sources ...

But I digress (how easy is it to get me worked up over the greedy sob's who will leave a dead planet for my grandchildren just so they can have three vacation homes today? ... don't ask). It's taken a long time just to raise awareness of particle contamination and pollution that we can talk openly about "smog", and "methane", and "acid rain" and the like (and even suggest things that ought to be done about them) awithout fear of being shot in the back or having our legs broken in an "accident" by the corporate thugs and gangsters who run our nation.

This is but one reason that the "great" Ronald Reagan needs to be taken down from his pillar and the conservative revolution be stuffed back into its box.

"corporate thugs and gangsters who run our nation"...stuff em back in their box....Yehaaaa! Now you talking!
Bio-diesel, ethanol, ect. are things that are "on the ground". They're ready to go and would have far reaching benefits to various industries; some of which are practically dead such as the farming industry.

Sure there are much more advanced sources and technology. I've said on this thread before..."If the monorail at Disneyworld can move thousands of people everyday with electromagnetic energy, why can't it move my family car?
Talk, Talk Talk...we can do something now, or we can continue to "talk every idea to death" for another 30 years or so. It is cumbersome enough to try and keep the oil majors from killing every decent idea that comes along (for obvious reasons). But for NOW combustible non petrochemical sources are a definite improvement and doable...without the National Gods of Energy.
There are more and more truckers around here going out of their way even to buy bio diesel from Willie's places cause they believe the process has to get started. 7 years and we could tell the Saudi's to go F*ck themselves. SWEET!

Remember, at one time it was said..."switch from coal burning energy to oil products...you must be crazy!!!"

[Mike]

shays said:

Hey, Mike ... you'll love this:

Telephone logs recorded by the National Security Agency and obtained by Congress as part of an ongoing investigation suggest that the vice president may have used the Oval Office intercom system to address President Bush at crucial moments, giving categorical directives in a voice the president believed to be that of God.

;D


And the big voice said..."F*ck the poor!"

[Mike]

The judge has dropped the Conspiracy Charges against "The Hammer". But it looks like he will go to trail next month for Money Laundering charges in Austin.
With a little luck this could be the end of his Majority Leader and Congressional career. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. He cost a few 20+ year Democrats their careers for nothing more than republican gain...gangster style.

Maybe he and Newt Gingrich can open up a fishing camp somewhere, and be the most powerful people there. ;D Or perhaps he could go back to being an exterminator in Sugarland, Tx.

[Mike]

Anybody remember Ken Lay and his "struggling" little energy company Enron?
While he's quietly laying under his rock waiting for the cloud to go away, he has taken $4 million of his "short change" and is buying tax deferred investments that are basically wrapped in insurance policies that are impervious to attacks by creditors and civil litigation. When these variable annuities mature in 2007 they will bring him a safe $900,000.00 annually in interest.

Yeah I know it's all legal, and smart even.
I just wish the single mother secretaries hardly getting by, and folks that were getting ready for retirement, that donated everything they had to his little "investment kitty" could get some benefit. Remember that they were being encouraged to buy and leave their stock with the belief that it was doing well...even as Ken and the boys were cashing theirs in cause they knew...
Same as Martha Stewart only much more sinister.

Hell, I'm just hoping he's not the lead council on Cheney's next energy summit again. Shortly after the last one we had "shortages" and the cost of gas turned into $3 a gallon. Poor guy..I hope he can make it on his $900,000.00 a yr beer fund.

[featphoto]

mike said:

Anybody remember Ken Lay and his "struggling" little energy company Enron?
While he's quietly laying under his rock waiting for the cloud to go away, he has taken $4 million of his "short change" and is buying tax deferred investments that are basically wrapped in insurance policies that are impervious to attacks by creditors and civil litigation. When these variable annuities mature in 2007 they will bring him a safe $900,000.00 annually in interest.

I have to ask if there's one too many zeros here ... 4 million generating 900k in interest is a 22.5% return ...